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    « entering the -ist-iverse | Main | Halftime »

    January 22, 2007

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    AliceAlice

    Maitresse, I find what you've written here so thought-provoking, and you really do put into words a lot of my own thoughts and feelings about what it's like to live in France as an American expat... There are so many of us, after all, and I know that my story as an American who fell in love with French language and culture is certainly not original and unique. But I guess I have to remind myself that as an individual, I am unique...

    As is each citizen of every country! I agree with your views wholeheartedly, and I think I too am shocked by what some more conservative politicians have to say in this country, as well as in our own country across the ocean... I agree that politics should represent a looking-forward, and be a sign of OUR times, not one of harking-back, and looking to past ideals.

    I feel I was given a fairly conservative education, ironically, in a Catholic household, for the most part... And yet I consider myself very openminded, and tolerant -- of course, far from perfect, and I have my moments where I feel like I have perhaps some undertones in my character that I wouldn't necessarily be very proud of sharing... But I'm human, too. So far from perfect. But I guess I feel like every culture (and every religion, every sexuality), every nation has something to offer and share, and that we have to see the strengths and weaknesses of all, instead of just labeling and stereotyping and therefore excluding one culture or another from immigration into a country like France. People come here for many different reasons, as so many of the first immigrants from Europe traveled to the New World several centuries ago... And these cultures blend together to make a country what it is today, which includes a mix of everyone.

    I don't think I'm expressing myself very well, but I hope you see what I mean!

    Really stimulating post in any case... I thoroughly enjoyed reading it!

    Alice

    I just wanted to add that you seemed very fair in your assessment of the party's views as well...

    rhino75

    The man, and everything he stands for, is completely objectionable. There's nothing reasonable about him. NOTHING. He's a clown, and a dangerous clown at that. Thankfully, unless things go horribly wrong, h doesn't standa chance.

    pam

    My time outside of the US has made me quite the American patriot, despite my - um, let's try the word LOATHIHG - yes, loathing for the Bush administration. When roped in to conversations about patriotism, I remember a quote by Howard Zinn in which he reminds us, "Patriotism is love for one's country, not love for one's government." Hallelujah to that, I say, and there is much to love about America, deep flaws and all.

    I think that often, people get whipped in to nationalistic frenzies, mistaking nationalism for patriotism - my country is better than yours vs. there are things about my country that I love and am proud of. Going around shouting You-Ess-Ay is a reflection of that bad sort of nationalism. Politics seems to love that stuff and it's a handy tool for exclusionism, useful for propagating anti-immigration sentiments.

    Some time back in a fit of crabbiness over Austria's anti-immigration campaigning, I thought it might be "fun" to go down to the campaign HQ and volunteer myself for deportation. "I'm an immigrant, so do you want me out?" "Not you," they'd say. "Then WHO, exactly?" I'd ask, outing this sentiment for exactly what it is.

    Oops. Three para comment. What a rambler.

    Mlle Smith

    I find the issue of immigration in France a very confusing one. This idea of exploiting a country (former colony) and its resources, leaving it barren, unstable, economically depleted, or in chaos, and then withdrawing from the country...and THEN attempting to bar citizens (the exploited) of these former colonies from entering the country that has profited from the exploitation of these "colonies"...this attempt to bar the previously colonized from sharing in the wealth that has been accumulated as a result of this exploitation...I find it bizarre. And confusing.

    I understand that they simply cannot accommodate all people with their social/economic model. But, there is also a problem with exploiting...withdrawing...and then barring the exploited. There is something...fundamentally inhumane about this. I don't know what the solution is, but it cannot be to simply turn a blind eye to the countries you (France) previously exploited...

    On another note, I don't understand the controversy over marriage between homosexual couples. I know it sounds clinical, but I simply can't help but approach the issue "logically". Perhaps it's because I have little to no connection to (or concern for) the issue. I think it's great that France and many other countries throughout the EU allow for legal unions of both heterosexual/homosexual couples. In this way, couples that love and live in a committed partnership are allowed to reap the same benefits (legal and economic) as any other "traditional couple".

    But, marriage is essentially a religious union. Even those that don't believe in religion and still enter into a marriage...the marriage itself is still a "union under God" proffered by the government. For anyone to ask that something considered an "abomination" be recognized by any religion...I just think this is highly offensive and is essentially "political correctness" (if that's a real term) gone awry.

    I think the original intent of the "gay marriage movement" was to ensure that gay couples received the same legal/economic benefits as "traditional couples". (And I think this should be the case for any committed couple.) Perhaps to secure "legal unions" the GM movement had to demand marital unions...because there really was no other model available and legally speaking, you always overstate your desired outcome in a suit knowing that the courts will likely offer less...but that "less" can be a highly desirable outcome (I hope this was clear...in a suit, you ask for 500 million if you really want 10 million in damages...if you had asked for 10 million in damages, the court will likely rule for 2.5 million in damages...meaning the courts will almost always offer less than what was requested).

    But, we have legal unions now. I don't understand how anyone could now demand that any gov't (and their attached religions) go one step further and honor/recognize what most religions see as an abomination. This is bizarre to me.

    I don't know if this is the argument that religious people use in their arguments against gay marriage. I haven't a clue. The issue just always struck me as bizarre because marriages are religious unions...no matter how we slice it. It's a religious unions sanctioned by our gov'ts.

    In the US, no matter how much of a "melting pot" we pride ourselves on being, we are a Christian country (primarily Protestant). This issue is just very illogical to me.

    Thank you for this post, Lauren. I really relished the opportunity to learn more about the politics of France and the issues at stake. :0)

    Maria Noland

    I disagree with Mlle Smith. I don't think the issue of le mariage homo is about personal beliefs. From a religious aspect gay marriage makes no sense at all, but it isn't a secular government's place to try to impose religious dogma, no matter how "logical" it may seem to believers, no matter if those believers comprise the majority of the electorate or not. Even if gay couples had the same rights and same tax benefits with civil unions (which they don't) as their married heterosexual counterparts, that they are not allowed to partake in marriage itself is discriminatory, a "separate but equal" faulty philosophy that doesn't convene modern times.

    And also I would like to believe that the French far right could restore a sort of patriotism in French hearts, but this "patriotism" of which Le Pen and de Villers constantly talk is, I'm afraid, only an ethnocentric façade to promote their zero-immigration, anti-European Union, anti-modern times and values philosophy that ends in alienation of much of France's inhabitants. There are many things that the French can be proud of, but the argueil of racist, anti-globalization politicians is definitely not one of them.

    negrito

    bah who cares anyhow ? this guy will not even get to the 500 signatures that are necessary to enter the real competition.. :)

    David

    I agree that we french should stop complaining about ourselves. The problem is that, because of hum... leftists movement, as soon as a frenchman is proud of his country he is accused of being racist. I firmly believe that some groups such as SOS Racisme, or le MRAP turned french fierté in a kind of shame or something that should not be said. That's pathetic. Unlike Maitresse I pretty much appreciate that americans have flags at home, in their garden, or even in shows as Springsteen did back in the 80's (OK, I was not born then... but still). Why, if a french comes with a flag at his window or in a show -except for the football - then he is labelled as a racist ? I think it is a shame that this do-gooders (bien pensants, ??? je sais pas en englais) turned our own pride in something we should be ashamed of. The red/blue/white flag belongs to all of us, and not only to those who share Le Pen or Villiers's vues. And so does this country.

    Nonetheless, I am pretty much fine with le bon Villiers staying were he is (below 5%) but I think we should no longer accept those destroying our identity while they pretend to protect it.

    David

    Mlle Smith

    David: I'm happy that you mentioned this...pride in one's country being interpreted as racism, etc.

    The same is the case for Germany and I found it difficult to understand why the people there were conditioned to be so ashamed of their nationality.

    After all, I'm from the US and God knows our history here is far more tainted (thought not always as recent), yet we fly the red, white, and blue every chance we get...It just seems hypocritical to me for me to assume that others (no matter their history or how recent their history is)...it seems hypocritical for me to deny anyone else the right to pride in their nationality, etc...if I am to have pride in mine.

    If that's the case, I (and every other American) should be ashamed of being an American...our history is f'd up here...but I am not ashamed of being an American. I hope that this guilt or compulsion people have to interpret this pride as racism...I hope this is a thing of the past one day. :0)

    John Baker

    I don't think anyone should be ashamed of the country in which they live or experience guilt for what is done by past or present governments. Where you happen to be born is a complete accident. Governments are only concerned with their own welfare. If looking after a certain group in society will produce votes, then you may receive some help and encouragement. Otherwise forget it.
    Devices like flags and concepts like patriotism are always to be questioned. They are points in our existence which allow those who would rule over us the leverage to exploit us

    Delphine

    Funny, I swear I just got back from Paris this morning! And having watched the news and following some of the discussions that the various candidates had on different shows, plus conversations with me cousins etc. And boom I read your blog upon my arrival. I agree with you 100%. I understand that people love their country etc...I have no problem with that BUT it becomes problematic for me when "the love for one,s country" comes with the cost of denying others of their rights, or the existence of the so-called "other" within that society...it is just wrong and I don't understand it. With said, I live in Montreal and the Quebecois have similiar issues as the French (with immigration etc) BUT thank god!! same-sex marriage is legal here in Canada.

    DDJ

    I appreciate that you've taken a more open-minded view of de Villiers' than most "left-leaning" people generally would. More often, people who disagree with conservative positions tend to dismiss them outright as completely intolerant and unworthy of any consideration, despite the generally acceptable goals (national pride to a degree, social stability, etc.) Tolerance is a two-way street - if one's going to preach it, one has to be open to opposing views - so it's great that you were able to provide a good accounting of the event minus any seething hate towards his viewpoints. All that said, I tend to the right, but wouldn't vote for the guy myself. I've found the recent Segolene gaffes somewhat entertaining, however.

    As an aside, I'm sort of in the reverse position of you. I'm heading back to grad school next year in a US program that will consist of roughly 40% foreigners. Even in the couple of days I've had to meet with everyone who's been accepted so far, it's really given me an unexpected boost in pride. I've heard ten different stories from Indians, Chinese, and one German guy, all of whom have developed a certain love for US society, and have made an active decision to live it for at least the next two years of their lives. It really helps a native-born resident to take notice of everything that gets taken for granted.

    You should check out Azure once in a while. There's a long review of the new Pryce-Jones book there right now. Or if you're daring, try Commentary, although the Schoenfeld piece might be difficult to read. ;)

    schuey

    i'm so relieved ;)

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